Judaism

[michael]

pablo said:

The trouble with the bible is that so many people have appropriated it for the their own shortcommings that it isa now a highly dubious document.

yea i agree with what you're saying, but you're placing blame in the wrong position.

the bible isn't troubled, people are.
the bible isn't wrong, it's people who have forgotten how to think clearly, so when they read nothing makes sense to them.
there is nothing dubious about the bible.
it's the church that is dubious.
and human beings that are dubious.



the bible wasn't written by a man.
and how do i know?
because i write holy books myself.
a form of automatic writing, i go into a trance, and angels tell me to write down the information they give.
and while this happens, it's even in a font not my own.

[jimmyRRpage]

You'll have to forgive me, michael, but I am a little skeptical of that (of course, part of the reason I joined here, along with education, was to help open my mind, so... ;D).

You see, as much as I believe in the Torah and the rest of the Talmud, I do not believe God had any hand in the writing of it. In fact I believe that not one Holy Book on this planet (or any other, if we want to go there ;D) had any writing influence by God or the god(s)/goddes(ses). They were all written by men (and women, too [?] depending on you religion).

I think what makes a book Holy, and what gives it the power it can have, is the faith of the people that choose to believe in its words. That is the part of the Holy Book that God influences. He has no hand in, and may even ignore, the initial writing, but when people choose to believe in it, God gives them reason to.

While I do not think the Talmud was written by God (nor did he inspire it in any way), I choose to believe in it because it makes more sense to me then the Christian Bible ever has. I believe God influenced my faith in the Talmud and in Judaism without messing with my ability to choose for myself. I believe God helped me develop my faith, which is why the Talmud is so important to me, and why I believe in it.

So what God is influencing, IMO, is not the writing, but your faith in what you write.

I also believe that the authors of these books are not inspired by God directly, but they are inspired by their faith in, and love of, God.

And this is where the power in the books comes from.

My belief in your trances follow a Psychological idea born out of Freewriting:

When you close your eyes, completely clear your mind, and let your hands control what you write, only God knows what's going to come out. I think it depends on who you are at the very deepest level of your soul. Since you seem to be a very faithful, holy person, what you write most likely becomes very holy material, because that is you. And most times, you will not recognize the handwriting it is in, so it can come across as if someone else had done it.

I do this exercie a lot because it intrigues me, and because when I see what I've written, it is interesting. You can find out a lot of things you don't know about yourself when you do this.

When I was much younger (in middle school), I apparently had suicidal thoughts that I honestly didn't know about on the upper levels of my mind. Now, what comes out are things about music, and wishes I thought I had forgotten, and ideals, and different kinds of angst (that thankfully no longer include suicide). For some, like myself, this is very personal, and I will choose to when to release what I have written, if I choose to at all.

I do believe some Holy Books, including, I think, parts of the Talmud, and especially (parts of) the Torah, were written this way. The original authors were very spiritual, holy people, and so what they wrote were words that were considered holy by themselves and many, many others.

But those are my thoughts on the subject, as I have always been skeptical. But as I said before, I joined this forum to learn and to open my mind...

[michael]

lol

[pablo]

Jimmy

I don't want to be prescriptive in any way. My daughter is reconnecting with her jewish ancestry. As she is not on line I won't go into too much detail. But sufffice to say that I was convinced of her ancestors having a hand in the matter.

We are currently awaiting Beth Din (my spelling may be wrong) to confirm her lineage. Then she does her ceremony. I Just want to know more and get your views. I would ratehr her be anything but a christian. I will be getting the "official party line" via the synagogue but I also like the popular voice.

I don't want to overload you as the only Jew on the board but write when you can and share what you like.

With respect

Pablo

[pablo]

Michael,

What is your take on the Golden calf and its influence on Judaism.

Thanks

Pablo

[Creator]

My kids are half Jewish.

[michael]

half jewish, lol
do any of you even know what makes a person jewish?

pablo, i'd like to talk about the Golden Calf, but it seems sort of futile.
first of all, you say the bible is dubious, and you seem to have some intense hatred for christ, which makes discussion of these subjects pointless.

[Creator]

michael said:

half jewish, lol
do any of you even know what makes a person jewish?

Yes, as a matter of fact I do know.

[Thorn]

I was told that if your mother is Jewish, then you are. If she isn't, then I guess you'd have to convert. (Of course, marrying outside of the faith is looked down upon, so I guess that in many cases, if mom is chances are good that dad is...)

Is this correct?

[jimmyRRpage]

michael said:

do any of you even know what makes a person jewish?

Well, speaking as a Jew...

With all sects of Judaism, with the exception of Reform Judaism, it's decided by whether or not the Mom is Jewish. In Reform Judaism, it depends on whether or not the Dad is Jewish. So put it all together, and it really depends on if one of the parents is Jewish.

But, there's also conversion and things like that.



And BTW, I don't know about pablo, but it isn't so much an intense hatred of Christ as it is an intense dislike of the way he is portrayed in the New Testament (self-centered, at best, IMO).

And that does not make the discussions pointless. In fact, I think it gives them more of a point, so why not answer his question?

[Creator]

jimmyrrpage said:

michael said:

do any of you even know what makes a person jewish?

Well, speaking as a Jew...

With all sects of Judaism, with the exception of Reform Judaism, it's decided by whether or not the Mom is Jewish. In Reform Judaism, it depends on whether or not the Dad is Jewish. So put it all together, and it really depends on if one of the parents is Jewish.

Yes Jimmy, as you pointed out, the view on this varies depending on what type of Judaism you follow. The father of my kids is Jewish. I am not. That's why I said they are half Jewish. According to some people they are Jewish and according to others they are not. But if we had been living in old Nazi Germany, there would have been enough Jewish in them to get sent to the gas chambers. Trust me. The führer didn't care much for such details as maternal bloodlines... Shalom.

I worked as a pre-school teacher in the Jewish school in Stockholm once upon a time. We had a Palestinian guy working in the kitchen cooking our school food LOL.

[pablo]

Jimmy

What is your take on the Golden Calf? I don't hate Christ. I don't know where the myth starts and the man begins.

Thanks

Pablo

[jimmyRRpage]

pablo said:

Jimmy

What is your take on the Golden Calf? I don't hate Christ. I don't know where the myth starts and the man begins.

Thanks

Pablo

As far as Christ, I know how you feel...

As far as the Golden Calf... I actually feel it was necessary.

You see, at the time (according to the Torah), Israel was still rebelling against having to live in the dessert. They were regretting leaving Egypt, because while they acknowledged the fact that they were poorly(such an understatment)-treated slaves, they believed they were better off in Egypt.

Picture Israel as a the typical young, unruly child. Israel wanted two things:
1) To live in comfort
2) To see it's parent

It was #2 that prompted Israel to create the Golden Calf.

I believe the episode of the Golden Calf and the consequences of it were part of the maturation, or the growing up, if you will, of Israel. I believe that had this episode not happened, then the Jews as a people would have struggled with an image of God all of our lives. In fact, I believe the episode, and consequences, of the Golden Calf, are a vital part of the reason the religion itself has not died out yet, and a smaller part of the reason it won't die out. Because without this episode, Jews would be struggling with having an image of God, they would eventually lose faith, and the religion would die, simply because we would never get over our curiosity (or in this case, be forced to get over it, depending on how you interpret the Episode of the Golden Calf).

As you can see, I also believe religions, including Christianity, BTW, are very fragile, and it does not take much for a religion to die out, which is part of the reason that people must have Faith in something in order for there to be a religion.

[Rach]

Hey guys...just popping in to say hi. Reading with interest as I have been brought up in the Anglican Christian faith yet for a few years I have been disenchanted with the church and a lot of the Jesus based teachings which seem to try and seperate us more from God rather than bring us closer...hmm. Anyway I've been considering conversion for a long while and I'm still in the early stages of consideration but I definitely feel much more at home with Judaism than Christianity.

[Summer]

Welcome Rach. Good to have you here! ;D