The difference between Cult and Religion

[Creator]

What's the difference between a cult and a religion, in your opinion?

Is it so that a religion is a just a cult that's been accepted into/recognised by society? Or is the only difference that religions get goverment funding and cults don't?

People often define a cult as a religious sect considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader, while a religion seem to have more credibility. However, I think several of the worlds big religions fit that description too, or at least parts of it.

What is your opinion?

[Thorn]

My guy instinct would be that a religion becomes a cult when its unhealthy for followers. I'm not sure how that would be determined though, especially from the outside, since what looks odd to one person could be extremely fulfilling to another.

[Summer]

Mormonism is considered to be a cult, yet you couldn't ever tell the members that. They consider themselves to be a religion. I have no idea what the difference between a cult and a religion is myself.

[Thorn]

debbie said:

Mormonism is considered to be a cult...

By whom? Other than Fundalmentalist that consider anything other than their specific brand of Christianity to be a cult, I mean?

I've known a lot of Mormons and ex-Mormons (including my sweetie) throughout my life and have never seen anything specificly cult-like. Francis left the church because he was unable and unwilling to live according to their moral teachings, but he considers his time as a Mormon to have been a rewarding one. He still has a lot of respect for the LDS church.

[Summer]

According to a college book I once read, Mormonism is considered to be a cult. I am not sure if I gave the book away or not, but I might have. If I didn't, I will list the name of the book here, and the authors too. I know, I was sort of surprised myself, being raised Mormon and all. It was a good book, and what I read made a lot of sense though. And now that I know what the Mormon's do in their temple's, I can see why other's would think that they were a cult. But we can agree to disagree on this one, if you like.

[Thorn]

debbie said:

According to a college book I once read, Mormonism is considered to be a cult. I am not sure if I gave the book away or not, but I might have. If I didn't, I will list the name of the book here, and the authors too.

Please do, I would be interested in this.

I know, I was sort of surprised myself, being raised Mormon and all. It was a good book, and what I read made a lot of sense though. And now that I know what the Mormon's do in their temple's, I can see why other's would think that they were a cult.

Bear in mind that anyone who knows what goes on in the temple had to have been a pretty devout Mormon at one time. And, as I understand it, would not only have had to have left the faith, but would also have to have some pretty hard feelings about it in order to divulge the secrets. Not saying the hard feelings couldn't be justified, just saying there is no such thing as an objective source here.

Being an initiatory faith does not necessarily mean it is a cult, IMO. (Though it certainly does make it easier to be one.) A lot of pagan traditions are initiatory, with teachings and rituals that are not shared with those who haven't undergone the initiation.

People from non-initiatory traditions (i.e. mainstream Christianity) do look upon this with great suspicion. But I think this is based on fearing what they don't understand, coming from a different worldview. But even Christ had different teachings for his Apostles and for the masses.

But we can agree to disagree on this one, if you like.

Always! Different opinions are fantastic. Just curious about your sources, as I've not seen this particular pov from an unbiased source. (It's a bit of a sore spot.)

[Summer]

Yes, it is a very sore spot with me too, because of my parents and how they treated me even though they were both very high up in the Mormon church. I had the most horrible childhood out of anyone I have ever met, except for my little sister. And I actually got beat up more than her, because I was the older one. Plus having been raised by people who hid behind the Mormon faith, but were actually Satanists, didn't help me to love the Mormon faith any more.

Even my real Mother's side of the family were Mormon; my Grandmother still is. She is a real Christian though, even though she is Mormon, so I understand that there are good people in the Mormon church as well as the hypocrits. Just wanted to let you know that.

But, considering that the Mormon church was started by a confessed Mason, who was murdered by the Mason's for divulging their secrets and starting his own religion with them, it is hard for me to believe a lot of the teachings of the Mormon church. A lot of the rituals that go on in the temple are just twisted Masonic rituals. I know this because one of my relatives told me about some of them after they left the church. They didn't tell me much however, because they had taken a vow to lose thier own life should they divulge any of the secret rituals that went on inside of the temple. But that in and of itself was enough to tell me that I never wanted to become Mormon again.

If I wanted to be involved in a magickal religion/organization, I would just join the Masons, rather than become a Mormon. Just my 2 cents. Now let's debate, LOL! Debating is healthy for us.

[Thorn]

Debbie,

You know I have nothing but sympathy for your experiences, and I can certainly see how the faith that your abusers hid behind you be permanently tainted for you. I really don't want to continue the debate if it brings you pain.

But, since you encouraged further debate, I'll play.

There are hypocrites in every religion. It's human nature - and bad people will use whatever's available. I don't know that the fact that cultists hid behind the Mormon faith while also being part of their own cult (which I do believe most Satanism is) makes Mormonism itself a cult. This seems to me sort of like saying that because Jim Jones called himself a Reverend, Christianity as a whole is a cult.

I don't see Masonry as a cult either. It doesn't meet my one rule of being harmful to it's members. Oathbreakers aren't included there, IMO (please see below for further explanation.)

Is the fact that the rituals are Masonic in origin part of what you consider cultish? Or was it the fact that Smith was supposedly murdered for using Masonic secrets? Masons, and others, take some pretty serious vows as they advance in the organization. A lot of people may assume that sort of thing is just there to scare people and make them take it more seriously; but it's never a good idea to take an oath ire you're not going to be able to hold to it, or if you're not willing to suffer the penalties if you do break it. I have to assume he'd have known what he was getting into there.

[Summer]

The reason I believed the book that I read was because of the oaths one has to take on one's own life in the temple. I find that to be a very strange thing for a Christian religion to have their member's do.

Also, in my opinion, Masonry is a magical cult of sorts, rather than a religion. And Joseph Smith was a Mason, as were all the first Mormon's when they first joined the church under Joseph Smith, and then Joseph started in with his own teachings that he supposedly got from some angels out in the woods, and the golden tablets that he found in a field under some rocks, that nobody but he himself ever saw. Strangely enough, there is a legend of Enoch in the Masonic tradition where Enoch finds ancient golden plates with ancient wisdom on them, which he imparts to the Masons. Well, Joseph also went through the same thing as Enoch went through according to his story. Hence, Joseph and all of the Mason's who followed his teachings were kicked out of the Masonic lodges they belonged to and Joseph Smith himself was murdered while he was in jail.

I personally believe Mormonism is a cult because of the man who founded it. And because it is misleading. The Mormon's believe that the only way you can get to the highest heaven is to be a good enough Mormon to be allowed to enter into the temple and go through the sacred, secret rituals that they have there. They also claim to have the Holy of Holies in their temple in Salt Lake City, that only their currant prophet can view, and that is how he communicates with God. I believe that is a lie, and there is no way that they could ever have gotten there hands on the Holy of Holies. And I believe that of course you don't have to be a Mormon to get into the highest heaven of all. I think Mormonism hurts people by making them believe that they need to be perfect AND Mormon in order to get into heaven. And that leads to some mighty unhappy people in my opinion, since it is virtually impossible for most of us to be perfect.

[Thorn]

But any Christian religion believes you have to be Christian to get into Heaven. The idea of the "One True Faith" is common throughout many, many religions. A tenet that neither you or I agree with, but does it qualify them all for culthood?

As for perfection, other faiths have an option of divine forgiveness. Don't the Mormons? I honestly don't know. I do know Francis was excommunicated, then allowed back into the fold, so there must be some way of atoning.

Plus, they've many other heavens beside the highest - so nobody's really that bad off. In order to go to outer darkness, you have to have absolute knowledge of God's reality and still deny him. Pretty stupid, IMO. I think Judas is probably the only one who's qualified.

Re: the golden tablets, many faiths are based on myth. Masonry maintains that it goes back to the builders of the pyramids, when in fact it's about 300 years old. There are Wiccans who still believe they are practicing a faith that has been alive since cave man days.

I don't know that Masonry really is a religion in itself, either. It's members have come from many Protestant sects, as well as Theists, and at least one pagan I know of. It would seem to me to be a different way of looking at one's own religion, as opposed to a replacement of it. Thinking of God as "The Great Architect" really isn't out of line with Christian thought. (And the whole Knight's Templar/Baphomet thing is pure BS, IMO.)

The "Holy of Holies" that you mention - what is this supposed to be? Again, I honestly don't know. I had always understood it to be an area with Jewish temples where relics were kept, or the relics themselves. It's never been clear to me. Anyway, a sacred part of the temple only priests could go. Of course, the Mormons could have something similar.

But the way you use the term, it seems to be a specific relic that the Mormons claim to have gotten a hold of.

[Summer]

Yes, the Holy of Holies is a specific relic, from the old Testament that was kept in the main Jewish temple in the Old Testament times. The High Priest could communicate directly with God through it. How the LDS church could have gotten it's hands on it is far beyond me. And what is even furthur beyond me are the sheep that actually believe the teachings of the Mormon religion. But, I tend to use as much logic as possible when researching religion, something that most people probably don't.

I am mostly just venting here, Thorn. So thanks for letting me. Plus you know they actually perform babtism's for the dead, so the dead will have the opportunity to become Mormon in the afterlife. That makes me want to laugh, if you want to know the truth. LOL! ;D But that's just because in my version of heaven, there is every faith known to mankind and then some. So why would anyone need to become any manmade faith once they die?

Personally I think the 2 leaders that set the basic priciples of the Mormon faith, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, had great imaginations that put them on pedastals, and started a religion that has made a lot of people feel unworthy to reach heaven, and to see Jesus Christ. And they started the religion based upon Masonic rituals. So they actually stole from the Mason's in order to create the "sacred" rituals that it takes to get into the highest heaven of all where Jesus Christ resides. That qualifies it to be a cult in my opinion.

Of course, there is the part about how Joseph Smith was a criminal who had served time for posing as a psychic, but was caught scamming people out of their money a few years before he started the Mormons. But since I don't know the full details on that, I won't go into it. In my opinion, because of all of the research I did into the history of the churches founders because of personal reasons, if you look closely at the LDS church, it qualifies as a cult.

[Thorn]

No problem, vent away! ;D

I guess what I'm trying to understand isn't so much about your opinion Mormonism specificly. It's more of what it is about the Mormons that you find cultish, and do you apply the same criteria to other groups? Back to the original question, I guess. What, in your opinion, makes a cult a cult?

As I see it, your definition seems to boil down to:

1. Lying to members
2. Dire consequences for revealing secrets
3. Making people unhappy

Do I understand?

The problem is, I can think of organizations do all of these things that I would not consider cults. (Granted, only if one interprets using metaphor and parable, and intiatory teaching/ritual, as "lying.")

#3 is similar to my own criteria. Though while I was really unhappy as a Pentacostal Christian, because I could never be their ideal Christian (i.e. male), I don't consider them a cult because fo that. (Granted, many of their other behaviors may just qualify them.) No religion is right for everyone, so there's always going to be some unhappiness.

Though I do see how my situation would have been very harmful if I was unable to leave. So I'm going to ammend my own criteria to include extreme barriers to getting free of the group once you've gotten in over your head.


I think we have definately come back to the "agree to disagree" spot and I'm cool with that. As I said, I just wanted to understand where you were coming from.

[Summer]

I can understand your viewpoint. I am going to give you mine. But I will have to pm you with the rest. As it is very private to me.

And I need you to know that my viewpoint is very colored. So I may be guilty of non-logical thought here. Being raised Mormon has done that to me. Logically speaking though, I would think that some Christian groups are cults as well. Depending on how they practise ostracism, and critical judgement of other people's private behaviors. But to me, I don't view Mormonism to be Christian at it's very depths. Christ's teachings are not prevailant in the churches truths, at least not where I'm from. It's always the book of Mormon, and the Old Testament. Or the newer teachings of the Docrtrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price, channeled material by the modern day prophets. Do I even trust these modern day prophets and their motives? Are they true Master's in every sense of the word like Christ, Krishna, and Buddha? I think not, or I would have heard of the great doings of the prophets.

The prophets of the recent Mormon Church have been voted in. Not chosen by divine miraculous events like the Master's of some of the other religions on the earth. I guess that must be the difference between a religion and a cult to me. The religions are started by members of humanity that show miraculous doings, that I have personal faith in. Whereas the religions I view as to be cults are started by people who's motives and reputations I personally question. So it is a matter of personal taste, and personal beliefs. Mormonism, since it doesn't strictly adhere in it's basic tenets to Christianity, atleast not where I am from, wasn't started by Christ to me. Therefore it is a cult in my opinion. But that is just my opinion. But at least you know why now.

[casilda]

Interesting topic!!

I've always been of the opinion that ALL religions are cults. Christianity started as an underground religion that over time has become accepted as one of the major religions.

But I don't define a cult as a negative organisation, as I'm sure there are positive as well as negative aspects to all such organisations!!

These are just my opinions, I have no experience other than being raised High Anglican and taking an interest in matters religious and secular

[jimmyRRpage]

I think it like this:

Every cult is a religion, but only part of every religion is a cult.

Basically, it's the fanatics in every religion who have the cult. for example:

-Judaism itself is not a cult, but Orthodox and Lebuvich (sp?) are cults
-Christianity itself is not a cult, but Born Again, Evangelism, and (I agree with Debbie, but more from outside than personal experiences) Mormonism are cults
-Also, Masonry itself, IMO, is not a cult (my dad's uncle is a member, and I'm thinking of joining). However, the strictest societies born from it (Illuminati, Skull & Bones, etc) are cults

Then again, some religions are fanatical enough to be considered cults in-and-of themselves. But I think we decide what a cult is based on personal opinions, knowledge, experience, etc.

But for practical purposes (both from Webster's Dictionary):

Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k<
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

So is there a difference?